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Eastern Railroad Discussion > Track question

Date: 07/19/01 21:00
Track question
Author: cnj327
I posted this question on the Western RR site. I thought I'd post it on the Eastern RR site to get some more feedback.



My son and I were watching trains on the UP main line, just west of Marshalltown, IA. UP is preparing to lay track there. I have three questions about ties, tie plates, and rail.

Ties. I notice that new ties appear to be about 3 - 4 inches longer than old ones. (They stick out on both sides as you look down the track.) Is this a new standard length tie? Do the longer ties last longer, or give better significantly better performance?

Tie plates. The new tie plates are larger than the old ones. They have three holes on each side instead of four. The appear to be about 15 inches long, about 2 inches longer than the old ones. Also, the old tie plates appear to be about 1/2 – 3/4 inch thick. The new ones appear to be about 1 inch thick. Finally, the new ties appear to be "beveled" in some way. In other words, the thickness is not uniform. It appears that when the rail is placed on the tie plate, the rail will be automatically canted There must be a reason for replacing the old tie plates. (The old tie plates do not appear to be worn excessively.) Do these new tie plates give better performance in some way? Are they easier on the ties? Rails?

Rail. I think that the new rail is 133 pounds/yard. When I grew up in Pennsylvania, a good railroad had 136 pound rail. (The rail had joints in those days.) The Pennsy had even heavier rail. I was surprised that the UP, with all its heavy coal traffic, would not be laying 136 pound rail. Does welded rail and bigger tie plates and ties allow UP to use 133 pound rail? Is the rail used today of better quality?

I would appreciate any other information that you could provide regarding laying track. Thank you.

CNJ
Date: 07/19/01 21:27
RE: Track question
Author: czephyr17
<>

Some railroads use a 9 foot standard, others 8'6". I have not seen any study saying that one is better than the other, at least to the tune of justifying the cost for the extra 6". In this particular case, since this was undoubtedly former C&NW track, it could be that C&NW used 8'6" ties, and UP standard is 9'. I know that the former BN used 8'6" and Santa Fe used 9' ties, so there is a mixture there as well.

<>

You didn't say what size the old rail coming out was. If it is less than 120 lbs per yard, then it probably has a 5 1/2 inch rail base; rail larger than that has a six inch base, which necessitates the larger plates. Otherwise, there would generally be no need to replace the plate, but once again the standards of the former C&NW and the UP could be different and UP may feel the larger plate will save money by reduce damage to ties from heavier axle loads by spreading the load over a larger area.

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Yes, tie plates are "canted" so that the rail leans very slight toward the center of the track for improved stability (rail car wheels are canted slightly to tend to push the rail out, so this helps counteract that force).


<>

UP has used its own proprietary 133# standard for many years, and if this was new rail you were looking at, it appears they are sticking by that standard. For some reason UP must feel it is a better rail section than the American Railway Engineering Association standard which has been 136# for quite a number of years, though I believe now they have increased this to more than 140# (I haven't followed recently). The AREA standard is used by virtually all other railroads for new rail. The rail used today is definitely of better metalurgical quality than that of yesteryear. The increased size of the rail head is important to extend life with increased wear from heavier axle loads and increased use of rail grinding, which maintains the rail head profile, a smooth ride, and reduces rail defects. I am equally as perplexed as you as to why it appears UP sticking with the old 133# standard, if in fact this was new rail.

Hope this helps!
Date: 07/20/01 02:37
RE: Track question
Author: unclepete
I think they are replacing the old rail with 141# welded rail.
Date: 07/20/01 06:30
Track questions
Author: mediumclear
czypher gave you good information. Just a few things I might add, first, as in so many things RR related, there are no universal standards. The general rule on ties is that you use a larger cross-section tie for strength and a wider and longer tie to distribute the loading into more of the ballast. A softwood tie needs to be larger especially in cross-section than a hardwood tie. So, with today's heavier axle loadings and hopefully higher speeds, you can expect larger and longer ties and very few softwood ties.
Second, the cross-section of rail (usually just called "section") is a very complex engineering matter and, as usual, while there are standards, many railroads also have their own specs. When you see rolling marks on the web of a rail, the section will be noted as 115RE, 130PS, 122CB, 133RE, 133UP, 136RE, etc. (There are hundreds, really!) How much the RR plans to grind, the steel metallurgy, amount of average curvature, and a host of other factors go into the shape of rail, the mating tie plate, the joint bar design if the rail isn't welded.
Third, for probably the last 30 years, heavy traffic routes have been laid with 130-136LB rail. Many of these can actually interchange the usage of tie plates and joint bars successfully. There does seem to be a trend in the last few years to break out of this pattern and go on up to 140, 141, and even the 150's again. The steel mills just love it!
I've heard it said that the PRR at one time had some 152PS rail laid in PA somewhere. In their time, that would have been radically heavy.
Date: 07/20/01 07:05
RE: Track questions
Author: galenadiv
I think the above posts provide valuable information. I only have one addition regarding tie length. Most railroaders feel it doesn't make much difference, but I have heard some salvage people saying that when they take up a line, they always get far more usable ties when 9-footers are in place than when the ties are 8'6".
Date: 07/20/01 07:07
RE: Track question
Author: cnj327
unclepete wrote: "I think they are replacing the old rail with 141# welded rail."

133 is stamped on the side. Unless that means something else.

CNJ
Date: 07/20/01 23:32
RE: Track question
Author: filmteknik
Everything you want to know about track structure can be found in pdf documents at http://www.arema.org. Most are massive and broken into sections which are still pretty hefty.
Date: 07/29/01 13:42
RE: Track questions
Author: billio
Medium clear notes that the PRR used 152# rail. Actually, the "Standard Railroad of the World" used even heavier rail, 155#. I know because I used to work for the B&LE (longer ago than I care to recount here), and our parent, US Steel, made us buy 155# rail for our own lines. Heavy stuff, long lasting.

--Billio

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